*Editor’s Note: This transcript has been edited and condensed for clarity.

Kathy Hagler:

I’m really happy to have the pleasure of introducing Robin Graham, who’s my co-author of “The ABCs of Murmuration.” I just want to say that it’s really such a pleasure to work with you. She’s been my teacher. I don’t know how many classes I’ve been to with her, but they’ve been amazing. She’s a teacher and thinker. So, I’d like to give the audience an opportunity to hear from you about your history with PSYCH-K and a little bit about yourself.

Robin Graham:

Beautiful. Thank you, Kathy. It’s been an honor to co-write with you, and I’m excited that we’re expanding these ideas so others can understand our vision of the ABC’s of Murmuration.

I got involved with PSYCH-K in 1994. Coming out of corporate, I had some self-limiting perceptions about whether I was good enough. I didn’t like presentations, although I had to do them. In my consulting company, I was exposed to a speaker named Rob Williams, the originator of PSYCH-K. In that presentation, he talked about how we have incongruencies within ourselves, and when they are incongruent, we waste a lot of energy trying to override them. The process of PSYCH-K helps bring these parts together. What we’re calling “whole brain thinking” brings everything together and allows us to move with more ease into presenting, making decisions, collaborating with others, etc.

Kathy Hagler:

I think we should teach this in grade school.

Robin Graham:

It would make a big difference on the planet. Thank you. Let’s do that!

I was drawn to learn more about this work, so I took the workshops and got involved with shifting my own life. What I’d like to invite the audience to understand is that we often think, “Oh, if that other person would just change…” But the most important person to change is ourselves. The work with PSYCH-K is a beautiful, gentle process to empower ourselves. We all have old beliefs and programs—similar to our computers that need updating—and we think everybody else needs updating, but not us. The beautiful thing about PSYCH-K is that it gently allows us to update ourselves.

As a result, I became an instructor of the work. I’ve been involved with PSYCH-K since 1994 and teaching since 1997. So, the majority of my life at this point has been involved with this work. It’s been such a blessing to work with people around the world. I’ve taught in over 20 countries with multiple languages translated—I don’t speak multiple languages myself. It’s been a blessing and an amazing life experience. I would suggest people stay open and curious, because what we present regarding PSYCH-K is a different approach to creating change, although it’s been around for over 30 years.

Kathy Hagler:

Let’s jump right in then. Let’s ask the first question about whole brain thinking. How does this whole-brain thinking that you talked about, this part of PSYCH-K®️, and the resulting ability to shift your beliefs play a critical role for individuals to be effective?

Robin Graham:

It’s absolutely critical because each of us has our own past experiences and perceptions. All of that impacts our decisions and our actions in every aspect of our lives, both personally and professionally. For example, I had a fear of speaking or presenting, and that limited me somewhat in my work.

These experiences and perceptions create what we term “beliefs,” and they give us our sense of ourselves and our capabilities. If we have a belief or perception that nothing we do is ever good enough, that’s going to impact our effectiveness across everything. Becoming aware that we have this belief that “I’m not good enough” affects how we apply our efforts in accomplishing activities. With such a belief, we have to overpower it with willpower and discipline, using extra energy. All that extra energy spent overcoming the limiting belief blocks us from actually using our creative energy in different ways, like creating new solutions.

The benefit of embracing whole brain thinking is that we become more effective with every activity because we bring not only our logical sense but also our creative sense. That includes both working with people as well as situations or solving problems.

Kathy Hagler:

Let’s think about the book that we’re writing on birds and murmuration. We’re really looking at how these starlings start with one and go to seven, which is “WE,” and then move to millions, which is “US.” How do they stay in the sky? And how can we, with all of our limited beliefs, do that?

What you and I did, Robin, was to research and ask, “Are there any habits that these birds have that allow them to go from this little tiny bird to a little group of birds to this great big group of birds flying through the sky?” We came up with three things: awareness, which says you have to attend to the now; the second thing was beliefs, which says you have to adapt and have new perspectives; and finally, you have to connect. We showed that these are the things that the birds do, and then explored how whole brain thinking helps us as humans to be able to do these ABCs.

Robin Graham:

Beautiful, thank you. So, if we start with awareness, we have to become aware not just about what’s going on outside of ourselves, but also within our internal thoughts and self-talk, which has a huge impact on how we relate or connect to anybody else. We have to start with the awareness within.

If I had a fear of attention—perhaps why I didn’t like presenting—due to a previous humiliating experience (which I did have), then we tend to narrowly focus our behaviors, actions, or projects to avoid being seen. This actually limits our ability to express our thoughts or even to step into any kind of leadership role. It narrows our universe.

Kathy Hagler:

It narrows the universe down.

Robin Graham:

Yes. And so, what we can do with the concepts we’re presenting around whole brain thinking is transform that previous experience to a new perspective. It frees us up to speak and to accept new projects. We’re able to expand beyond our current awareness of our internal concerns and see new ways of engaging with others. That, of course, leads to adaptation, which connects with our beliefs about adapting to new perspectives.

Regarding belief, I want to share that we’ve all heard about the placebo effect. The example is that in drug research, what’s believed to be the drug creates an expected impact, even though what was given was a pill or solution without the actual drug. The effect, when someone experiences it from a placebo, has been proven to last. This relates to our beliefs about ourselves and others because if we have a congruent belief that we can accomplish something, we will.

As in medical research, the opposite is also true—called the nocebo effect. If we believe something’s harmful, then it is. I’ll share a quote from one of my favorite people in the world, Bruce Lipton, who wrote a book called “The Biology of Belief.” He stated that our positive and negative beliefs not only impact our health but also every aspect of our lives. Your beliefs, much like filters on a camera, change how you see the world, and your biology adapts to those beliefs.

One of the things about beliefs that people may not know is that the majority of our perceptions about ourselves were established prior to the age of seven. We have to question what messages we heard and absorbed during that time of our life. Often, the message is that we’re not worthy or not good enough, or that we perceive we’re being rejected. Some of that may just be because we were too young or too small to do something, but we don’t perceive it that way. We perceive it as being rejected as a whole being. This creates low self-confidence or sometimes a need for control.

One of the exciting things that’s happened around beliefs over the last few years is that research in neuroplasticity has recorded brain images showing that our capacity to adapt is constant throughout our life. The exciting thing about this is realizing you’re not a victim of your past experiences or decisions. You have the ability to make new choices and to change your perspective about yourself, the group you’re connected with, or the impact potential of everyone around you.

To continue with Connection, what I love about the starling murmuration is that it’s made up of individual birds. They’re all aware of each other, and they’re aware that they’re part of the whole. It can be easy to forget that our individual actions actually ripple out to others and impact others in our home, team, or organization.

Kathy Hagler:

We don’t even think about that.

Robin Graham:

We don’t think about that. And that’s part of when our awareness expands from that individual “I’ve got to help myself and protect myself”—when we let go of that, that broader vision allows us to see things that we may not be seeing right now.

I can share an example that happened a couple of months ago. There was a manager who had a request from a trusted friend who needed a specific internal document to prepare for a critical meeting. The manager gave it to him even though it was an internal document not to be shared publicly, and this other individual did not work with the organization. The document helped this friend prepare.

Later, the friend was going into a different meeting and knew there was another internal document referencing that topic. So, he asked a different manager for a similar internal document, explaining that the first manager had given him the original. The second manager felt pressured to comply because the first manager did it, and gave the document.

The scenario happened a third time, but this time the external person asked the director, who said, “Absolutely not. This is an internal document not freely given to an external person, whether you’re a trusted friend or not.” What happens when we do something like this is that a precedent is set. That external person thinks, “Oh, they gave it to me because I was a trusted friend. Now a trusted friend of mine asked for it, so I can give it to them.” It starts a dangerous precedent of sharing beyond where it’s supposed to be. The challenge is that the first manager was thinking more in that small box of helping a friend, not considering the larger impact on the organization.

Kathy Hagler:

I worked for the federal government many years ago and taught ethics training. One of the things I taught was about loyalty and the importance of whether you’re loyal to a person or loyal to the idea of the whole. The Secret Service was in this training in Pennsylvania, and they said they refer to that as “dog and cat loyalty.” Cat loyalty says that you are loyal to a person because you have to be—because they’re a friend. Dog loyalty says no, we’re loyal to the whole as one. That’s what they teach for the Secret Service, and it’s just what you’re saying—you really have to understand your environment and understand that you’re coming together as one, which somehow the birds have been able to do.

Robin Graham:

Yes, nature is amazing in how it demonstrates things that we need to learn. We think we’re smarter, but we need to learn from nature, which we have conversations about.

Kathy Hagler:

That was an excellent example. So, the next question is: what blockages do you think stand in the way of murmuration? In our research, we found that the birds (in research they’re called “boids”) do three things. In the group of seven when they’re together, one of the birds steps up—they wouldn’t say they lead, they say they step up—and they literally go up a little bit and navigate the space. But if a hawk comes in from one area, one of them over on the other side can step sideways. The main one then has to step back and allow others to step up, which we haven’t learned to do very well in organizations.

We know how to step up and navigate the space, but we haven’t learned very well how to step back and let someone else step up to navigate. This stands in the way of the third habit which the birds have, which is to stick together. If there are no hawks flying around in the area, they simply fly together, respecting and trusting each other. So, what blockages do you think stand in the way? What kind of beliefs stand in the way of us being able to do that?

Robin Graham:

I love learning from nature and the birds. All of us have our own internal perceptions and beliefs that impact our behaviors and actions. In the over 30 years of supporting whole brain thinking, the common individual blocks include not being good enough, not feeling safe, fear of rejection or humiliation, powerlessness, lack of trust in others, and also lack of trust in oneself. Another is not wanting to succeed beyond what our parents may have achieved. The one that’s become most prevalent over the last few years is the feeling of not belonging. When we look at step up, step back, and step together, that belonging concept is critical.

Let me separate them:

For “Step Up,” the internal environment needs to be navigated in order to broaden our perspective for the external environment. If we’re focused on fear of being judged or wanting to make sure we do the perfect action, that fear of being judged and rejected blocks our ability to share our ideas, express our disagreements, and trust others to support us.

Examples of perceptions or beliefs that fall into this category would be: “No matter what I do, it’s never good enough,” or “If people knew the real me, they wouldn’t like me,” or “I can’t trust people to support me because all they really care about are themselves.” These are areas that can block us from stepping up into situations that require or invite us to step up and be a leader, whether at home or elsewhere—it starts with “ME.”

With “Step Back,” there is an aspect of “ME” involved with this as well, because I have to allow others to step up if I’m going to be a leader in any capacity. There are times when someone else has a better way of doing things or is better at negotiating or engaging individuals. It’s critical to explore our own beliefs about leadership. Does leadership mean making all the decisions? Of course not. But sometimes we need to think about what we’re allowing others to make decisions about, whether at home, in a team, or in any kind of organization. Stepping back and supporting others to step up and learn how to lead is one of the leadership skills that defines a great leader. A great leader is not always the one leading; a great leader creates support for others who can step up when needed.

Kathy Hagler:

And interestingly enough, that starts with the “ME” too.

Robin Graham:

Exactly. For stepping back, some of the blocks might include: “I can’t trust others,” so I’m not going to step back if I don’t think I can trust others. Or “I have to control this because if I have power, then that’s the only way to succeed.” Another might be “I blame others—whether it’s your boss, coworker, or partner—for my problems.” If I’m blaming others for my problems, that’s going to block me from trusting them or stepping back to allow them to step forward.

The third one is “Step Together.” In order to step together, I must feel like I belong. If I have a perception that I’m not accepted or respected or don’t belong, then connecting with others is actually impossible. If I believe I can achieve more by myself, or that I must shine above everybody else, then the potential for cooperation and collaboration is lost. There’s this misunderstanding that competition is the way to survive and thrive. That’s actually not true, and when we look at nature, it’s not true. It was a misunderstanding many years ago. It is the ones that are most adaptable and work together that have shown sustainability.

Another point about collaboration or working together—stepping together—is that the 17th-century definition of competition is very different than what we perceive it to be today. According to Webster’s Dictionary, competition was derived from two Latin root words that meant “to strive together.” That’s very different than what we think of as competition today.

I’ve also been exposed to a traditional African concept called “Ubuntu.” What that means is “humility towards others,” or “I am because we are.” Stepping together is the spirit represented in harmony based in mutual trust and respect for others. It’s the kind of love that takes “I am because we are,” not “I am and you are”—”I am because we are.”

Kathy Hagler:

I love that this allows others to step up. “I am because we are”—once you get that in your mind as “ME,” that automatically creates the “WE.”

Robin Graham:

Yes, it just spreads out from there.

Kathy Hagler:

I love that “I am because WE are,” and then if you think about it, WE are because “US” are.

Robin Graham:

Yes, the ME-WE-US concept is fluid. It’s ME to WE to US, but also US to WE to ME. We all have to move together, and that’s what the murmurations do.

Kathy Hagler:

How can this whole brain thinking be used to ensure that intact teams are most effective?

Robin Graham:

It goes hand in hand because if individual team members doubt their own ability, maybe due to low self-confidence, the whole team is impacted with not being able to create solutions together. Projects get delayed, trust issues develop, and so on. Once each member of the team has actually shifted their own beliefs about themselves and about the relationships within the team, working together becomes more effective in all areas.

Kathy Hagler:

That’s great. And you’ve probably already answered this one, but how can whole brain thinking support murmuration—the oneness of individuals?

Robin Graham:

We mentioned that the basis of murmuration is a combination of individuals flowing within a group, demonstrating there are times when we step up and times when we step back. Without mutual trust and respect, murmuration would never happen. As humans, we have basic needs to belong, to feel connected, and to be of service in some way. When each individual embraces their own internal whole brain thinking regarding themselves, they can engage and be part of the team, recognizing their impact within the larger group. The connection is created with the understanding that what I do or don’t do impacts you and the greater group.

Kathy Hagler:

It’s almost “I am because WE are.”

Robin Graham:

Exactly. As I was thinking about this, the concept of oneness has been demonstrated in various research groups. For example, author Lynne McTaggart has demonstrated in 35 scientifically controlled experiments that a group sending a specific, intentionally focused thought to a target gives measurable effects. Some of their research showed plants growing faster, violence lowering in specific areas, and improvements in the health of individuals—all through externally focused intention.

What they surprisingly found was that the individuals involved in the research, although they were focused on an external target (sending love or whatever they were doing), discovered improvements in their own personal lives with their own relationships and their own internal sense of well-being.

Kathy Hagler:

Robin, isn’t there a “Gaia” project? Isn’t that what it’s called? That supports sending messages together through the PSYCH-K world?

Robin Graham:

Yes, we have a project called the Gaia project. Once you know PSYCH-K, you can work with that—sending or holding the space for the best for all, that inner intention to focus.

Kathy Hagler:

Which is what you’re saying—holding the best intentions for all as we go in the world.

Robin Graham:

Yes, and if we think about what decision we’re making, and then look at the ripple effect of that decision to the team or to the larger organization, we may make different decisions.

One example that came to mind was from several years ago when I was working with a director who had been placed in a new city with an established local team. She experienced very quickly that the team did not want her there. They wanted the previous director, which of course they knew and understood how to work for. It was somewhat about not wanting change. But she also realized that her own self-doubt as a leader was impacting her ability to do what needed to be done or engage with the team to bring them together.

Through our sessions, she was able to identify several areas that were limiting her: past experiences of rejection and failure, and doubting that she was actually the best candidate for the position. As we worked with creating whole brain thinking using PSYCH-K, she shifted and re-perceived herself. She released the past experience, gained self-confidence, and discovered that when she internally relaxed and was confident, she stopped trying to create what she thought was best. She expanded her ability as a “ME” to consider what would be an opportunity for “WE,” and she explored with her team what they saw as the best way to approach these new problems or goals.

As she did that more and more, the team jumped in and engaged with her—more cautiously at first because they wanted to see if this would last. But within a short time, they saw this collaboration occurring and the impact that the rest of the group was having. They let go of their own resistance and joined to be part of that group. It’s a great example of how “ME” can impact a whole group. She shifted within herself, which impacted the “WE,” which brought them all together into a murmuration.

Kathy Hagler:

That’s wonderful. So, tell me the African phrase again.

Robin Graham:

Ubuntu. “I am because we are.”

Kathy Hagler:

And once she got that internally, and once she saw that she could make the change and change her perspective, she shifted her perspective and accepted them, didn’t she?

Robin Graham:

She accepted herself, she accepted them, and they felt it. She was no longer in a fear state.

Kathy Hagler:

That’s interesting—she didn’t have to say it, but they knew it.

Robin Graham:

And that shows how we are not just our words; we’re also our energy. Our energy goes into the room quicker than we do.

Kathy Hagler:

I’ve often thought about the birds in murmuration—they don’t talk to each other. They don’t say, “Hey, scoot over.”

Robin Graham:

They don’t touch each other on the shoulder—or on the wingtip—and say, “You know…”

Kathy Hagler:

So, she put that out in her behavior, put that out in her state of mind and her mindset, so that people could actually see it in her body—that she was accepting. “I am because we are.” That’s beautiful.

Since we don’t have a lot of time, let me ask: What strategies or tools do you recommend for leaders to incorporate this whole brain thinking?

Robin Graham:

We have varying levels of understanding, so there are different approaches people can use to move into whole brain thinking. Some of the simplest:

First, ask for feedback about how you’re perceived in various situations. We think we’re perceived in a certain way, but maybe we should ask for feedback and be open to receiving it—not defensive, but open and receptive.

Second, we all have an observer part of ourselves that watches us. Allow that observer to watch and become aware of whether you’re instantaneously reacting to something or if you’re sensing what’s going on. Take a breath, take a moment to consider what would be the better choice of response instead of reaction.

Then, maybe expand your perception that your approach to achieving a particular task is the only way. Sometimes people have different ways of achieving the same thing, and there’s not a wrong way, but we perceive ours is the best way. Ask somebody else how they would get to a certain result.

With whole brain thinking, it includes both logical thinking and creative approaches. If you’re more logical, bring in the creative; if you’re more creative, bring in the logic, and find that medium where they match.

Additionally, there are many assessments available that can help you understand yourself better and gain insights into your team. These assessments assist in expanding your understanding and acceptance that different styles have value beyond your particular style, which gives you greater appreciation for everybody. This brings you personally into whole brain thinking, brings you from a selfish “ME” focus to a group “WE” and then to the murmuration of “US.”

And finally, my favorite go-to is PSYCH-K®️, which is the transformational method that brings internal congruency—this whole brain thinking—regarding any area of conflict, resistance, or struggle. Often the results of PSYCH-K®️ are expressed as finding inner confidence or experiencing openness and calmness, as well as an ease with others that’s based in compassion. You listen and understand; you respect and trust them. What we find is that when we find that inner congruency, navigating both our internal environment and the outer environment becomes much smoother and easier.

Kathy Hagler:

That’s beautiful. I guess that brings me to the last question: How can we help leaders or individuals or teams understand this parallel between whole-brain thinking? How does that work?

Robin Graham:

Well, that’s part of the book. Let me give a variety of examples. There are many sources that contribute to this concept of whole brain thinking—they may not call it that, but it’s the same concept.

Kathy Hagler:

What else do they call it, by the way?

Robin Graham:

That’s a great question, and I’m not sure I can fully answer that.

One source I mentioned earlier is Bruce Lipton. He’s a cellular biologist who realized during his research that we have a greater influence on our health and survival through our thoughts than through our genes, which is mind-blowing. We think genes control everything, but the research has shown that your perceptions and thoughts have a greater impact. When we have limiting beliefs, we can overcome them through determination and willpower, but that creates internal stress, which impacts the body, diminishes our immune system, and even affects the expression of health genes. Bruce is a great resource—he has a YouTube channel and several books explaining all of this.

Another amazing source is Jill Bolte Taylor. She’s a neuroanatomist who experienced a massive stroke and, because of her scientific mind, observed it happening. She shared her journey in a well-known TED Talk as well as her first book, “My Stroke of Insight.” She recognized—and this relates to whole brain thinking—that she had a stroke on the left side of her brain and was not able to process words and logic. They were offline. Her entire perception became one of connection with all, using her right brain processing, which made it challenging to live in our daily environment. This shows the critical nature of not just processing in the left arena or the right arena (logic and creativity), but having both working together.

Kathy Hagler:

Is that a balance? What does that mean when you say you balance the right and the left?

Robin Graham:

The left hemisphere processes things like words and parts, and it sees things as separate. The right processing capacity sees things as whole and connected, and in pictures. If I’m viewing things from just a left perspective, I’m limiting the whole. If I view things only from the right perspective, I’m also limiting the whole. Whole brain thinking means coming into balance between these two, bringing them together so that we see things both in detail and as the whole picture at the same time. We can make better decisions that way.

Kathy Hagler:

It’s interesting because when you think of whole brain, it’s almost like thinking of “ME” and “WE” when we’re together with someone. It’s like going from “ME” to “WE”—few people live alone by themselves out in the forest. They need other people, need those connections. It’s a balance; we don’t have it all. In whole brain thinking, one side doesn’t have it all—we need both sides.

Robin Graham:

This is actually demonstrated in science with mirror neurons. Mirror neurons in the front of our brain allow us humans to have empathy for others or to feel what someone else is feeling, which impacts our compassion. Mirror neurons could be thought of as the natural response when somebody smiles and we tend to smile back, or if we sense judgment, we tend to protect ourselves. There’s this mutual mirroring of energy that happens when we’re in a group. The more people that are aligned together, the greater the impact for mirror neurons to bring everybody else into alignment.

Another example about how we work together—the impact of murmuration—comes from research done many years ago with a system called a Faraday cage. A Faraday cage protects against electromagnetic fields, so whatever’s inside isn’t influenced by electromagnetic energy. In this research, they had multiple people sitting in two different cages who couldn’t see each other. They were wired up with an EEG system to measure their brainwave activity. The goal was for each person to intentionally think about connecting with the other through nonverbal communication. What they discovered was that the person who had the most balanced brainwaves—whole brain thinking—created a connection that caused the second person’s brainwaves to shift and resemble the pattern of the first person.

Kathy Hagler:

Wow.

Robin Graham:

The conclusion was that the more whole-brained we become, the greater influence we have toward helping other people.

Kathy Hagler:

That’s murmuration right there. That’s wonderful.

Robin Graham:

The last idea that needs to be brought in is the contribution to murmuration from quantum science. In quantum science, there’s a concept called quantum entanglement. This is a research phenomenon where particles are impacted at the same time, even when they’re thousands of miles apart. If we take an expanded perspective that everything is energy, including our thoughts, then we are interconnected with others beyond what can be currently measured.

For example, my perception of you impacts how I interact with you, and your perception of me impacts how you interact with me. What’s interesting is to explore where this energetic exchange begins. As an example, borrowing from Bruce Lipton: if we take two guitars next to each other and pluck the A string on one, the vibration or frequency will activate the A string on the second guitar. If I put my finger on the first guitar’s A string and stop it, the A string of the second guitar will reactivate the A string on the first guitar.

Going back to murmuration, each individual has a direct role in influencing the flow, harmony, and impact of the others because each individual is part of the whole. If we take a drop of water out of the ocean, that drop of water, no matter where we take it, is still part of the ocean.

Erwin Schrödinger, one of the founders of quantum mechanics, stated that the total number of minds in the universe is one. To me, that’s the definition of murmuration—that we are part of the whole of humanity, and as individuals, we impact the whole. If we want to have a greater impact, we need to take responsibility to update our subconscious beliefs and perceptions (the 95% that’s in charge of everything). We need to update that and create a broader connection to the “WE” and a broader connection to the “US.”

The whole gist of everything we’re presenting is that we could talk all day about external training, but it all starts within. Our approach is an inside-out approach—we have to work within ourselves, within our belief systems, within our perceptions, to shift how we see others and how we see ourselves related to others in the bigger scheme of what we’re calling “US,” which is murmuration.

Kathy Hagler:

That’s wonderful, Robin. It reminds me of the ABCs: “ME” has to be aware of the now, “ME” has to adapt to new perspectives, “ME” has to connect and begin to act as one—but “US” has to do the same thing in order for “ME” to be fed. What we’re talking about is being in the present, acting in the now, knowing how to shift to new perspectives, and then acting as one.